Thread: Heer and/or Waffen SS?

From what I read and understand, this mod is created around the British sector of Normandy. Well, for the first "chapter" at least. So does this mean the 12.SS will be modeled or is this mod going to only add Heer units? I hope it isn't the later only.

1) The 12th SS would only be used for specific maps required the 12th SS. However we would probably NOT make child models for it, we would use stock SS models. The only real sign that they are 12th SS would come from spawn point names (cufftitles would not really be visible due to camo smocks).

2) Currently, all planned maps take place with british and canadian troops versus Heer forces, so SS is not a concern at the current point. They will however be modeled and represented in time, when needed.

Hope that answers your question.

However we would probably NOT make child models for it, we would use stock SS models.

I'm sorry but why would I want "child models?" The 12.SS Panzer Division that fought in the Caen area had an average age of 24 but the youngest members allowed in were 17. The Waffen SS was not the the same organization as the BDM girls and Hitlerjugend. Most of the 12.SS formations were comprised of the Hitlerjugend that were of age and then took the name on their cufftitles.

The only real sign that they are 12th SS would come from spawn point names (cufftitles would not really be visible due to camo smocks

Actually they didn't wear smocks. They wore the DOT 44 peas tunic - M44 - and matching pants. They also wore the Italian camo Fallschirmjager uniform overalls (I can't find my Osprey book at the moment to find the correct name).

2) Currently, all planned maps take place with british and canadian troops versus Heer forces, so SS is not a concern at the current point. They will however be modeled and represented in time, when needed.

In April 1944 the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend moved into its reserve area northwest of Paris and was declared fully operational. On D-Day, June 6, 1944 it was ordered to operate on the left flank of the 21st Panzer Division and throw the enemy west of the Orne into the sea and destroy him. When the Allies took the Normandy beaches and its surrounding areas, the SS Division Hitlerjugend, which consisted of 20,540 men, marched into the area to the north and west of the city of Caen.

The British and Canadian troops had been ordered to capture Caen within 24 hours of the D-Day landings. On the morning of June 7 the Hitlerjugend Division attacked and delivered many stinging defeats to the allies on that first day of battle. This SS Division fought so ferociously that they kept the allies from taking Caen for over a month. The British and Canadian outnumbered these young German SS soldiers both in men and material, but the fighting spirit of this elite division stopped operations ‘Epsom’ and ‘Goodwood’ in their tracks.

SOURCE

Pictorial Evidence

LARGER IMAGE

DOT 44 Peas pattern

Ok, time for the history bash:

1) The 12th SS 'technically' only allowed down to 17, however there were still 16 and 15 year olds serving in the ranks.

2) The 12th SS DID wear camo smocks. They did not just wear peadot, which was actually rather rare at the time in the 12th SS (more common in the 10th SS actually, where whole companies were issued dot44). The usual camo was a collection of palm, oak and planetree 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, (etc to 20) type camo smocks. Camo trousers were uncommon. "Italian camo fallschirmjager smocks" did not exist, nor did they ever exist, nor would 12th SS ever wear them. THEY DID have some italian camo, and that made up the few camo trousers they had, (along with extremely rare field made smocks, that photo being one of the few I've ever seen them, btw I've seen that photo many, many times), the rest being dot44.

Here are examples of the most common smock types worn in the 12th SS, and indeed in any SS unit:


Palm:



Oak A:



Oak B:



Blurred Edge:



Plane Tree 1-2



Plane Tree 3-4



Plane Tree 5-6



3) I did not say that the SS won't be in the mod. I said that the current maps under development (Lebisey being announced, the others not being announced yet) do NOT feature the 12th SS, or any SS unit, as they did not involved SS units. All the battles currently are battles between canadian and british forces against German heer. Once again, I will point out that the SS are not forgotten, however it is felt by the team that it is best to focus on a single branch of the German army for the current moment, in order to put more focus of getting out the mod, and less on doing another completely different player model. When the time comes, the SS will be represented, but they will be represented CORRECTLY. What you have in your mind is simply incorrect.

4) Sourcing. Let me quote you here:

The British and Canadian troops had been ordered to capture Caen within 24 hours of the D-Day landings. On the morning of June 7 the Hitlerjugend Division attacked and delivered many stinging defeats to the allies on that first day of battle. This SS Division fought so ferociously that they kept the allies from taking Caen for over a month. The British and Canadian outnumbered these young German SS soldiers both in men and material, but the fighting spirit of this elite division stopped operations ‘Epsom’ and ‘Goodwood’ in their tracks.

This is simply...laughable. The source shows an obvious inability to get facts straight. The 12th SS, while lavishly equipped, was a 2nd rate division at best. It was well known for its ability to display incredibly bravery, however suicidal last stands and charges representing that of the Japanese banzai charge do not a battle win. The reason the British were unable to take Caen on the first day was due to the incredible tenicity of the 21st Panzer Division at Lebisey, the 130th Panzer Lehr at Tilly-sur-Seules, and several basic German infantry and Luftwaffe Feld Division units in the area, including the 272nd Infantry, which distinguished itself greatly on the left flank behind Caen. The 12th SS fought fanatically, however fanaticism is not the same as competence, and it ended up having to be constantly backed up and supported by the Panzer Lehr, the 1st SS, and the 9th and 10th SS later in the campaign. It took frightful casulties with very little gain, whereas other german panzer divisions in the area took frightful casulties, but were able to back that up with results. What the 12th SS was considerably capable of doing was the execution of POWs, and shooting wehrmacht soldiers in the back if they attempted to surrender.

"The Canadians noted that despite advancing with courage and determination, the young Germans seemed to lack tactical control and had a habit of attacking piecemeal, failing to exploit favorable opportunities."

http://www.historynet.com/world-war-...normandy.htm/3

The usual camo was a collection of palm, oak and planetree 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, (etc to 20) type camo smocks.

While you would see Oak Leaf pattern and Planetree patterns on smocks, the Palm pattern was designed for the Waffen SS that were in the southern parts of Russia. There wold have been no need to have that pattern for Normandy.

Camo trousers were uncommon. "Italian camo fallschirmjager smocks" did not exist, nor did they ever exist, nor would 12th SS ever wear

I never said anything about "Italian camo smocks." I did say overalls.





SOURCE

SOURCE 2

4) Sourcing. Let me quote you here:

Instead of using quotes, I italicized the content about the 12.SS. I'm not sure where you thought they were in my own words; I don't plagiarize.

The reason I brought them up is because they are major part of the Normandy offensive, often wrote about in the memoirs of British and Canadian soldiers that had to take them on.

They also wore the Italian camo Fallschirmjager uniform overalls

No, you wrote "Italian camo fallschirmjager uniform overalls", which I automatically took to mean step in fallschirmjager smocks. You are instead referring to simple italian camo overalls that were fieldmade. Yes they were used, no they were not common, and were generally supposed to be used by armour crew. Some infantry did use them, but not enough to give a representation ingame, considering that SS are going to be SS generic.


Palm was not merely supposed to be used in southern russia, it was used in all SS units throughout the fronts. Also, anyone with the slightest actual experience in studying german uniforms in the war, would no that there was NO conformity whatsoever in uniforms. For instance, the pure fact that Plane tree 1-2 was a pre-war camo design did not mean that it stopped being used once new camo came out. The germans reused camo nonstop, and due to the cottage industry in use in germany, old uniform types continued to be made throughout the war. For instance, I have seen an early war type pony pack, which was technically supposed to stop being made in 1940, that was made in 1944. I have a M40 helmet that was made in 1943 (one year after the M42 was supposed to take over on the assembly lines. Etc, etc, etc. Due to the cottage industry, the manufacturers were not bound to change over to a new design, they were simply sent examples of the new design. Some changed to it, some put in variation, some didn't. Hell, one single factory produced all their line of peadot camo turned 90 degrees for a horizontal pattern instead of vertical.

Apart from the entire discussion, for as long as we don't have maps to place SS units on, we wont. I will try my hardest to keep it that way, the less SS, the better.

Well, in the end in this sector, SS has to be put in and commonly when we get to the big battles around Caen. The 1st, 9th, 10th, and 12th all fought in the area, compared to the american sector where it was just the 17th and 2nd.

Originally Posted by Fuchs

Apart from the entire discussion, for as long as we don't have maps to place SS units on, we wont. I will try my hardest to keep it that way, the less SS, the better.

I hope you are kidding. I don't like the Russians and their political system of the time, but I don't go to the Red Orchestra forums and demand TWI take them out because it offends me.

Also, by this time on the West and Eastern fronts, not everyone serving in a Waffen SS division were Nazis. There were plenty of Luftwaffe and Heer personnel that were transferred over to fill the ranks.